Curse

centur · Aug 08, 2008, 06:23 PM // 18:23

I wonder why rits spawning power affects Spirits and Weapon spells, but not affecting Item spells? Actually i never saw any other primaries (except VwK farmers) used Item spells. And ritualists usually using it a lot.

I think it will be a good idea to add some benefits to Item spells from rit primary attribute ( it either raise usage of rit primariy chars imo, cause there is no reason except runes to play as Rt - noone specs to spawning, resto\chanelling only).

For example, each point of spawning power add 3(4)% to duration of item spell\shorten recharge time (values should be carefully considered not to overpower Rts).
And each 3 points - lower mana cost on 1 point. Or another idea - when item dropped - character gain 1 mana for each 3(2) points in SP.

This buff will add some benefits to rits primaries on short duration item spells, also it will help a little with rits energy management, which actually far from any balanced state imo.

-Makai- · Aug 08, 2008, 06:26 PM // 18:26

I agree that Spawning Power needs to be looked at, though I don't think anyone knows how it can be done with pure balance in mind.

It's sad how such a versatile profession's primary is limited to merely two of its aspects.

MithranArkanere · Aug 08, 2008, 06:37 PM // 18:37

Many items have area effects when dropped.

I would give Ritualists a more versatile feature for their primary:
- Range increase: The more power you have when Spawning, the farther you can spawn.

Something like: For each point in Spawning power you have, your AoE skills have 5% more range.

So, if 'adjacent' ist's more or less 1meter around the center of the location, having 12 Spawning power would make adjacent skills hit enemies that are halways between nearby and adjacent, but not nearby.

TheodenKing · Aug 08, 2008, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

Many items have area effects when dropped.

I would give Ritualists a more versatile feature for their primary:
- Range increase: The more power you have when Spawning, the farther you can spawn.

Something like: For each point in Spawning power you have, your AoE skills have 5% more range.

So, if 'adjacent' ist's more or less 1meter around the center of the location, having 12 Spawning power would make adjacent skills hit enemies that are halways between nearby and adjacent, but not nearby.

That would be an utter and complete nightmare to create within the game engine.

I Is Special · Aug 08, 2008, 07:43 PM // 19:43

/signed for some kind of minor boost to SP.

Lishy · Aug 08, 2008, 07:47 PM // 19:47

I think item spells in general need to be changed.

Dr.Jones · Aug 08, 2008, 08:01 PM // 20:01

i think item spells need to be a little over powered reason; because you cant "attack" wile holding one yes there are the few spike builds but other then that i think they need a buff.

centur · Aug 08, 2008, 08:38 PM // 20:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

I think item spells in general need to be changed.

Imo item spells are fine in current state, except they need some buff for primary profession users. Its correct that you dont have any benefits from weapons you have. Usually its problem with energy - you cant have high energy set and with duration you have nothing to do with it duration and should use secondary profession skills to maintain your primary role continuously.
Imo if item spells was introduced in factions, with Rits, so Rits must reap most benefits from it, and at current state - quite all have benefits and few other professions have even more benefits than rits ( e.x. VwK warrior - much safer than Rit)

G E A R S · Aug 10, 2008, 11:07 PM // 23:07

/signed

i agree 100% and considering almost all rit skills require either a weapon spell, spirit, or item spell i think that item
giving a primary class boost would help

-Makai- · Aug 11, 2008, 02:36 AM // 02:36

After reading comments from other Guru posters and speaking to a few Ritualists in Kaineng Center this morning, I've arranged a general consensus of Spawning Power ideas:

Relative to Spirits:

1) Could have a further impact on Spirit level (armor and crit hit calculations).
2) Could further increase Spirit health.
3) Could give energy after creating a Spirit.
4) Could affect casting/recharge time.

Points 1 and 2 seem to be the most common. Receiving energy after creating a Spirit would be hard to balance since Spirits have a very large array of costs, from Bloodsong to Recuperation. 4 would be greatly appreciated and would give primary Ritualists a clear advantage over /Rt.

Relative to Item Spells:

1) Increase "holding" duration.
2) Increase "dropping" effect.
3) Receive energy after creating an item.
4) Increase max energy while holding an item.

Because some item spells have no holding effect (and vice-versa), points 1 and 2 would probably have to be combined to give an effect across the board. Unlike rituals, item spells have a fairly even energy cost spread (5-15), so receiving a static value would be easier to balance. Suggestion 4 is my favorite, because it gives the Ritualist less incentive to drop his urn at a crucial moment.

Relative to Weapon Spells:

Personally, I feel like weapon spells are fine the way they are. But here are a couple suggestions I've found:

1) Receive energy after casting an weapon spell.
2) Receive energy after a weapon spell ends.

Point 1 would be much more feasible than the 2nd, both in concept (spawning meaning creating) and balance. Weapon of Remedy and the new Xinrae's Weapon could easily be abused. Most of the more useful weapon spells don't cost very much, anyways.

Zahr Dalsk just posted an interesting idea in my Summoner's Insigna thread:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

I'd rather see Spawning Power altered to either give an energy gain whenever a spell is used, or reduce spell cost (like Expertise, but for spells), or give a pip of energy regen at certain intervals.

What if Spawning Power gave an extra x pip(s) of energy regen while creating spirits?

I think it's safe to say that Spawning Power may be the worst primary in Guild Wars. Even Fast Casting has useful applications in PvP. That being said, I'm wondering if Spawing Power skills would be widely used even if the inherent bonus was augmented.

upier · Aug 12, 2008, 10:05 AM // 10:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sante_Kelm

What if Spawning Power gave an extra x pip(s) of energy regen while creating spirits?

You need to remember how bad PvPers consider spirits to be.

Personally I'd just love to see all the spawning changes (I don't even care if we lose the increased weapon spells duration) and spirit nerfs reverted for PvE.
Ohh and change spirits so that you can have multiple version of one spirit present on the battlefield at any given time (PvE ONLY once again!).

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 12, 2008, 10:25 AM // 10:25

Some ideas:

For every 4 points in Spawning Power, you gain +1 energy regeneration.
So combined with natural regen and armour regen,
at 0 SP, 4 energy regen
at 4 SP, 5 energy regen
at 8 SP, 6 energy regen
at 12 SP, 7 energy regen

alternately,

For every 3 points in Spawning Power, Spells and Binding Rituals cost -1 energy.

So energy cost reduction at 3 SP is 1, at 12 SP is 4, at 15 SP is 5, etc.
At 14 SP and 4 energy reduction, 5e spells cost 1e, 10e spells cost 6e, 15e spells cost 11e, etc.

And one I particularly like:

For each rank of Spawning Power, the Energy cost of all of your spells, Rituals, Ritualist skills are decreased by 4%.

Like a spell version of Expertise.

At 13 Spawning Power you would get 52% energy cost reduction, same as a ranger would get for skills with Expertise.

So you'd be able to do a lot of interesting things, such as running normally high-energy skills at low energy cost, perhaps running a Monk prot build with very low energy costs. Similarly to how a Necromancer can use our Restoration magic effectively, and a Ranger and Assassin can use other professions' weapons effectively, Ritualists would be able to mimic other spellcasters - obviously without that profession's runes, but at reduced energy cost.

And for PvE, I'd enjoy seeing mobile, durable, long-lasting, effective spirits.

Ah, if only I had a localized version of Gw that I could mod to test these things...

tmakinen · Aug 12, 2008, 10:27 AM // 10:27

Very good suggestions all around, /signed for rebalancing Spawning Power.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

change spirits so that you can have multiple version of one spirit present on the battlefield at any given time (PvE ONLY once again!).

Oo ... that would be major imba. Pop a Bloodsong, Sin Promise, repeat until anything in the vicinity gets instagibbed by 20+ Bloodsongs hitting simultaneously.

Lhim · Aug 12, 2008, 11:45 AM // 11:45

I like a lot of suggestions being made here and most are very reasonable (except the multiple spirits). The spell-expertise idea sounds good to me. This thread should be read by the people involved in skill changes.

upier · Aug 12, 2008, 02:34 PM // 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

Oo ... that would be major imba. Pop a Bloodsong, Sin Promise, repeat until anything in the vicinity gets instagibbed by 20+ Bloodsongs hitting simultaneously.

You mean like minions?
Plus there is the moronic spirit AI, there is the fact that minions actually serve as a wall and prevent massive amounts of damage AND on top of that - spirits damage is easily boosted by Painful Bond - where as the damage of minions can be boosted by MoP/Barbs - which both trigger not only on minion damage but ALSO on ALL physical.

As long as you can only have 1 spirit of a certain kind - spirits stay dead.
Because using your WHOLE skillbar to bring up something that is outclassed by 2 necro skills deserves to be left for dead.

tmakinen · Aug 12, 2008, 04:00 PM // 16:00

If you really want to, minions are capped by their respective attribute, so maybe the same kind of mechanism would be possible for boosting Spawning Power in PvE without making it silly OP. Something along the lines

Spawning Power (PvE) Every 4 ranks in Spawning Power enables you to control one additional spirit in the range of other spirits of the same kind.

SP = 0 -> 1 concurrent spirit allowed like now
SP = 4 -> 2 spirits of the same kind allowed
SP = 8 -> 3 spirits of the same kind allowed
SP = 12 -> 4 spirits of the same kind allowed
SP = 16 -> 5 spirits of the same kind allowed

MithranArkanere · Aug 12, 2008, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmakinen

If you really want to, minions are capped by their respective attribute, so maybe the same kind of mechanism would be possible for boosting Spawning Power in PvE without making it silly OP. Something along the lines

Spawning Power (PvE) Every 4 ranks in Spawning Power enables you to control one additional spirit in the range of other spirits of the same kind.

SP = 0 -> 1 concurrent spirit allowed like now
SP = 4 -> 2 spirits of the same kind allowed
SP = 8 -> 3 spirits of the same kind allowed
SP = 12 -> 4 spirits of the same kind allowed
SP = 16 -> 5 spirits of the same kind allowed

Wo-hoho!
That would be too much in PvP.
In PvE won't be much of a problem...

But I still think that it should be something less like the Divine Favo and work for more professions... like increase in range of spells, increase duration of non-enchantment spells, etc...

upier · Aug 12, 2008, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Something like this would actually be very acceptable - or maybe even something in the lines of limiting the amount of spirits you can have rather then limiting the number of spirits of the same kind.

The issue is that (for instance) Bloodsong already has a 30 sec recharge while lasting 140 secs. Which means you already need to waste your elite just to be able to raise your spirit army (compared to a MM).

(And yeah Mithy - like I said - it would be PvE only.)

Crom The Pale · Aug 12, 2008, 05:52 PM // 17:52

I like the idea of gaining +1 energy for each 3 points in spawning power when you drop an item. The problem with that is it could be abused in some instances where there are items that require a player to cary it, crystals in the Elona Reach mission for example or Flags in PvP.

A minor damage reduction or armor bost might be most balanced since if your carrying an item you are without the benifit of any bonus Armor your offhand or Staff might provide you.

Perhaps +1 Armor for every 2 points in spawning or -1 damage reduction? Which would be more balanced?

**cosyfiep** · Aug 12, 2008, 06:38 PM // 18:38

yes spawning power need lots of help.....will sign on to that for sure.